Transcript of Barrayar: The Vorld of Vorkraft
<INTRO MUSIC>
Amy 00:00
Hello.
Haley 00:01
Hey there.
Lori 00:03
Hello.
Amy 00:04
I'm Amy.
Haley 00:06
I'm Haley.
Lori 00:06
I'm Lori.
Amy 00:08
And you have found yourself listening to Hugo Girl, a very funny very feminist podcast in which we talk about Hugo Award winning works of art and literature and Hugo-adjacent things and things we just like
Haley 00:22
and nautical literature,
Amy 00:23
and sometimes Moby Dick.
Lori 00:26
In addition to being a funny podcast and a very feminist podcast, we are also a Hugo eligible podcast. And since it's nomination season, Hugo nominations are open until I believe March the 15th. Just throwing that out there. If anybody is a nominator, you can nominate us if you want to, for Best Fancast.
Haley 00:47
How do people become nominators? Is it hard?
Amy 00:49
I think by the time they hear this, it'll be too late.
Lori 00:51
Yes, correct. You have to have a membership by January 31.
Amy 00:56
But if you were a member last year, you can still nominate!
Lori 01:00
On that subject too, we were mentioned by a fellow podcast, the Octothorpe podcast and they were so nice.
Amy 01:07
They were so nice!!
Lori 01:08
They were so complimentary. And they said that they would consider putting us on their nomination ballots, and they were so nice. I was thinking about why it was so so nice. We didn't know them. And it's like finding out that someone talked about you behind your back and everything they said was very nice.
Amy 01:24
Exactly. That's exactly what it was. In fact, it was a wonderful feeling. And I'm I really applaud their efforts to say are our name
Lori 01:32
Oh, it was cute.
Amy 01:33
It was very cute. They did not say it in sassy enough fashion, for their tastes. I thought they said fine.
Lori 01:41
I appreciate that they said it at all! So anyway, they're a good podcast, too. I listened to several episodes that day when I was enchanted by their kindness, and I really enjoyed it. So give them a listen.
Amy 01:52
What was the name again?
Lori 01:53
Octothorpe!
Amy 01:54
Octothorpe! Okay, do we have any reviews? Lori?
Lori 02:00
Oh, yeah, we have two. Did I really not read them already? Have I just read them so many times myself that I thought I read them on the recording?
Amy 02:09
So Lori, do we have any reviews?
Haley 02:10
You said them silently in your heart so many times!
Lori 02:13
Yes we have two. Which I did not realize I hadn't read because I've basically memorized them. Alright, Geeklet23 says I just started a project to read all of the Hugo and Nebula winners. I came across this podcast and it's my favorite podcast related to the topic. The hosts are hilarious and super knowledgeable.
Amy 02:32
Dang, right!
Lori 02:33
Thank you so much, Geeklet23! And then Torakichi85. This is a fairly long one. But something that I really enjoyed was that Torakichi85 says, "I found myself wondering how the hosts would classify (Star Wars or Lord of the Rings), the other books that I'm reading. Now I finally started reading the Vorkosigan saga just to be able to enjoy their upcoming Barrayar episode. Highly recommend!" Thank you!
Amy 02:59
I promise you that we will have an opinion on whether the book you are reading is Star Wars or Lord of the Rings. So if you'd like to send them to us for our opinion, please feel free. Hugogirlpodcast@gmail.com
Haley 03:10
Even if we haven't read it, we'll figure it out.
Amy 03:12
That's right. We will have opinions whether we are entitled to them or not.
Lori 03:16
Oh! We were going to mention during our Moby Dick special - Haley, you wanted to mention The Black Joke. Did you want to mention that briefly?
Haley 03:23
Speaking of nautical literature, I discovered this - so, being a Jeopardy alumni, I'm in a bunch of Facebook groups with other alumni and there's one that's women in jeopardy and it's super - like, it's like one of the most wholesome places on the internet, and it's super supportive. And a member of it named AE Rooks, she's an author and two time Jeopardy winner, she wrote a book called The Black Joke, the true story of one ship's battle against the slave trade. So it's nonfiction about nautical history, but it's the first time I've ever read a book about nautical history by a woman and it's awesome, and I highly recommend it.
Amy 03:54
Hooray! What was her name again?
Haley 03:56
AE Rooks. I'm not sure if it's out yet. We got advanced copies from Simon & Schuster, which is really cool. But it should be out soon if not.
Amy 04:08
Okay, so this month we read Barrayar by Lois McMaster Bujold. It was first published in Analog magazine in four installments from July to October 1991. And then it came out as a book in October 1991. It won the Hugo for Best Novel in 1992, making Lois the first author since Orson Scott Card to win the Hugo for two years running. The Vorkosigan saga as a whole won the Hugo for best series in 2017. And fun fact: Bujold and Heinlein are tied for Hugo wins at four, not counting Heinlein's retro Hugo's, which I thought was cool.
Amy 04:44
<quoting> Do I understand correctly? You've been having some sort of female trouble? No. Most of my troubles have been with males. <laughter>
Lori 04:52
I love it!
Amy 04:53
That's basically Cordelia's stance on everything in this book. So Barrayar is part of the Vorkosigan Saga. It was the eighth book written but second chronologically and most of the saga involves Miles Naismith Vorkosigan. This is sort of his origin story, but mostly it's about his parents. So his parents are Betan survey Captain Cordelia Naismith, who has a "serviceable face good for all practical purposes."
Lori 05:27
That's all you need.
Amy 05:28
I think we should all endeavor to have serviceable faces. So she's married Admiral Aral Vorkosigan, who is stocky and powerful. I just really liked her descriptions of everybody. And she's moved with him to his home world of Barrayar. So Cordy, as I like to call her, mostly just gestates during the first part of the book, and will be kind of bored and like at sea with the Barrayaran social customs, but while she's doing that, Aral has started his job as regent for Barrayar's Child Emperor Gregor, and this appointment brings all manner of peril to Cordy and Aral and the people around them, and the people around them include Bothari, a soldier with "a gargoyle's face," who is currently serving as a guard to Aral's father. Aral's assistant Koudelka and Droushnakovi, Cordys lady's maid/bodyguard/assistant, who has "excellent musculature" -
Lori 06:24
I thought of her as Brienne.
Haley 06:26
Yeah, but she's basically a little more feminine.
Amy 06:29
So there's a faction of Barrayar that is unhappy that Aral is serving as regent because they think he's too progressive and not, "Vor" enough for the extremely conservative ruling aristocracy on Barrayar. The faction is headed up by Vidal Vordarian, who eventually leads a coup and declares himself Emperor during the coup. Child Emperor Gregor is spirited away into the woods by Cordy and Bothari and a couple horses. Horses feature very prominently.
Lori 06:54
I love it!
Amy 06:56
Cordy learns a lot about Bothari on this trip including his great love of killing people and his inability to tell when doing so is inappropriate. And the over the course of the book we learn a lot of pretty terrible stuff about Bothari, which I guess we knew if we had read the book right before this one but you know this being our first one, it's the first time we read it, but apparently we're supposed to forgive him, but I don't know. Okay, so Vidal orchestrates a lot of attempts on the lives of our main characters. One of these attempts involves poisoning Aral and Cordy using a grenade a very gnarly soltoxin. Cordy and Aral are given the antidote, but it's lethal to fetuses. So our heroine Cordelia is currently pregnant with Miles. And unfortunately, this antidote is going to melt his bones. So, in her first heroic effort to save her fetus, Cordy undergoes a placental transfer and Miles was moved to a uterine replicator. This is a crazyballs operation on Barrayar, but it's routine where she comes from, but it leads to this whole manner of nonsense. He's then housed in this hospital where they're trying to save his life. But then during the coup, his replicator gets stolen. And then in her second heroic effort to save his life, Cordy takes Koudelka, Bothari, and Droushnakovi on a trip to the Capitol to do a -
Lori 08:07
Baby heist! <laughter>
Amy 08:10
During this trip, many shenanigans ensue, most notably another Vor woman giving birth in a gross abandoned building, with Bothari acting as midwife, and Cordy stealing a couple minutes to matchmake with Kou and Drou. The group eventually saves Miles and the replicator but not before Cordy tells Bothari it's appropriate to behead Vordarian, and he does so as proxy for Cordy. It's very strange. Then Cordy puts Vidal's head in a drawstring Gap bag so she can present it to Aral and his men back at HQ. Miles was ultimately born slightly underdeveloped and with brittle bones, but despite this inauspicious beginning, I'm given understand he goes and does much heroics and derring-do in the in the rest of the series.
Lori 08:50
Yeah, he has lots of books of his own. And by the end of this book, he's riding a horse!
Amy 08:54
That's right. Very last thing we see. Little horse!
Lori 08:57
Just enough to bond him with his terrible grandfather.
Amy 09:00
Goodies from Goodreads! What you got?
Haley 09:03
So, like a lot of the books we read, they're very polar. Like, most people love it. And then like, you know, you got some haters, but the nice ones aren't as fun to read. So I found one that was a little bit sassy, that I kind of agreed with. This is from Yulia Alboda. And here it goes: "Call me crazy, but to me it felt like the libretto of an operetta. Love is in the air all the frakkin time. We also get a beta couple of very naive youngsters who act like nine year olds, and who are the protagonists of extremely silly and ridiculous scenes. We have a plot against the regime concocted by a character who we can spot as being the bad guy from the very first scene he appears in. The perspective of motherhood is constantly looming over and we get cascades of related sighs and melodrama. No, it didn't feel like science fiction at all. It felt like a lame love story that happens to take place in an imaginary universe." <laughter> A bit harsh, but there's some funny parts.
Lori 09:52
I've got one from Goodreads by Aaron, who gave it one star, and Aaron said, "Did not finish. A disappointing departure from the spirit of the series. Political intrigue and assassination attempts never seemed so dull." <laughter>
Amy 10:05
Aww! Juniper on Goodreads rated it two stars, and I apologize for some of the language but it's - it's not that bad. It's just not - I would not normally use this language but it's "a 25 year old female soldier complaining about her crippled lover who just weeks before broke her hymen is one of a handful of plot devices that separate the true moments of greatness in this book, it could have been so much more."
Lori 10:30
Whoo, wow. Yeah. You wouldn't use that language!
Amy 10:33
No, I would not! But his body is definitely a focus in the book. So it - it makes sense in the context of "bad," but no, the book goes to great lengths to tell us that what your body does and does not do for you, is not really important. By that I mean, I think that's the takeaway of the book. So it is funny, that's what she focused on in a review, but it doesn't matter in the context of the book. I was gonna read another one, but mostly because the guy's name is and "antinomian." And he gave it two stars, because it's a romance in a science fiction setting. And he wants it to be recognized that he could barely enjoy reading the novel. But I mostly just wanted to read his review because his name, his name sounded like a real word. So I looked it up. And it's relating to the view that Christians are released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law.
Lori 11:21
<laughter> Oh!! Is it ironic or not?
Haley 11:27
I don't even know what that means. They're absolved from grace by...?
Amy 11:30
Like, you could do whatever you want them ask for forgiveness. Essentially.
Lori 11:37
You just gotta make it in before you draw your last breath.
Amy 11:40
Exactly.
Haley 11:40
Well, that's what they told us that YMCA lock-in!
Amy 11:45
I will say he thinks that the requirements of a romance novel is that there has to be a hero, a heroine and a strong hero, and the other male characters are weak!
Lori 11:53
Sir, Cordelia is the hero! She is the strong hero!
Amy 11:57
Right, the other male characters are weak, and once he realized that he could not enjoy the book, people.
Lori 12:01
People get so worked up about any amount of romance in a non-romance genre. So mad about it, it's like calm down on people. In real life people actually do like each other.
Amy 12:13
He says that the all the other male characters are weak or loyal, like dogs!
Haley 12:17
Well, I think it's maybe they're objecting to the fact that it's equitable. Like I feel like there's always women and a lot of sci fi books, but they're just like, you know, things that you make love on. I don't know, it's not. I don't, I don't know what they're objecting to. It's not sex, it's something else.
Amy 12:30
Yeah, like, which Koudelka was really worried that's what he did with Droushnakovi.
Lori 12:34
Oh, my god.
Amy 12:35
So Kou and Drou have the sex at one point. And it's Drou's first time and Kou, was just excited to learn he could still perform after being shot by a nerve disrupter. But he was so focused on the task at hand that he failed to ascertain whether Drou was into it. And then afterwards, he was wracked with guilt, because as he said, he raped her. He just thought he did. He just thought he did. So he apologizes to her for raping her. And she's like, I'm sorry, what?? It was the strangest way to create like, she's - she got upset, not because he raped her, but because he thought he did.
Lori 13:13
Well, Cordelia did a pretty good job of breaking it down, even though it's ridiculous. First of all, I could live my life just fine if we never discussed this B plot, but -
Amy 13:26
<laughter> We don't need to bring it up again.
Lori 13:28
But I appreciated how Cordelia was like, you basically told her that you weren't paying any attention to her. Like she was happy that it happened. And didn't understand why you weren't talking to her. And then you're like, I forced you and it just like, as though she is though she couldn't have made the choice to have wanted to do it. And that pissed her off.
Amy 13:47
The fact that he wasn't even clued in enough to realize that she was what she into it!
Haley 13:51
Weren't they kissing?!
Amy 13:51
She was into it. Yes. Yes. They were kissing and then yeah, like one thing led to another.
Haley 13:55
I'm not mad at him. I just think it's like, it's just sad. Like, it's just an odd way to - I think he's really socially inept, maybe? I don't know.
Lori 14:02
Yeah well, as we see. They're all very repressed on Barrayar.
Amy 14:06
They're all very casual about rape. Like, it comes up a lot. And they're all very conversational about it. Very strange. Like Cordelia included, like, everybody, like, it's just, like, very odd.
Lori 14:18
I don't know if I would say Cordelia is casual about it. I think. I think that she is frank about it.
Haley 14:26
I think on this planet, it's a it's just a fact of life, unfortunately.
Lori 14:29
Well, and you know, they've just - so we haven't read the previous book, but they're, like, fresh out of a war where it was used as a weapon of war. And Cordelia is just like, you know, it was what it was. It happened.
Amy 14:40
Yeah. And that's probably a better way to put it, I guess. Matter of fact is more. It's just the way it's talked about. It's just odd.
Lori 14:47
Oh, I totally agree with you.
Haley 14:49
I was so excited to have a female author because usually we don't get as much of that kind of stuff. But so I was a little bit disappointed that it was a big plot point in this as well. So it's like, god!
Lori 14:58
Yeah. Here's the thing, like I don't necessarily agree that it never has a place in a book, because that's something that happens to people. It's part of life. And I think, you know, it's important for other people who have survived that to be able to see it in art, or to see it discussed in art. But I think like most of the time, when we read something about a rape or sexual assault, it's written from a sort of almost prurient point of view. And you know, I'm thinking about The Windup Girl right now.
Haley 15:28
Or all of Game of Thrones season six.
Amy 15:32
I don't know how she handled it in Shards of Honor, which is the book right before this one. I mean, you would have been seeing it happen in that book. Here, they're just talking about it. So we're sort of one removed from it as a plot device, because it doesn't really function as a plot device at any point in this book that I can recall. They just talked about it.
Haley 15:49
It could be removed, and I wouldn't have missed it.
Amy 15:51
Exactly. It's like, so is it worse that they talk about it? But it's not actually happening?
Lori 15:53
Well, I don't know. Because if you have read it, and I think, you know, the books are written to stand alone. But of course, it is part of a larger story. So I think you have to address it, if you saw Bothari committing these war crimes in Shards of Honor. And then they're just like, Oh, he's friends with everybody. I think they have to talk about it.
Lori 16:07
And plus, his assaults that he experienced as a child too. So that kind of explains his backstory.
Amy 16:17
So for people who aren't aware Barrayar comes right behind the book ahead of it, so that chronologically Shards of Honor happens. And Cordelia and Aral are in a war against each other. And then I think she defeats them, and then they get married. So a lot of things happen in that book. And then this book picks up literally the next day, from after Shards of Honor ends. So that's why Shards of Honor is going to come up a lot. And the war, they both come up.
Haley 16:43
And we don't have any of their baggage that we've experienced personally.
Amy 16:47
So yeah, and Bothari, obviously, he does a lot of very bad things in Shards of Honor. And then at some point at the end of the book, it's like they reprogram him or something to like, forget a lot of the things that he did and not be able to talk about it. And so he has to come to Cordelia and ask what he did. And so that's the context in which a lot of this happens is her telling him what he did. Which is alarming. But she but she loves him and trust him and is really okay with him.
Lori 17:15
He made me think of what you said about Amos from the Expanse. That his own identity is so fragmented that anyone who is a leader, he will follow which is why he did you know, these awful atrocities during the war. And then he sees and recognizes in Cordelia someone that he can follow, and hopefully do better.
Amy 17:36
And they have the same backstory, same thing happen to Amos. Same thing. So there's a lot of parallels there.
Lori 17:42
I wonder if the two men who comprise James SA Corey read Bujold.
Amy 17:48
Maybe! It's an odd coincidence that they have all that in common, but I guess it's not outside the realm of possibility. I want to get right to baby heist.
Haley 18:00
That's a talking point??
Amy 18:01
Yes. Baby heist is our talking point. So, okay, here's my thing about Cordelia. So Cordelia is pregnant. And she learns that her baby is going to be melted by this antidote. She goes to great lengths to keep that from happening. Like she has him removed from her body and put in a uterine replicator when he's already like six or seven months along, and then or five or six months along, and then, I mean, she's just, she's very into saving this baby. I had a hard time reconciling that with her Betan colony background because like, it sounds so much like she comes from a place that's very technology and, and rational-heavy, and like that sort of thing. So like, and they can make a baby there by two people spitting in a cup and then mixing up a baby and putting it in uterine replicator. And it seems to me of the two cultures or societies, hers would be the one more likely to be like, the fetus in and of itself. You know, we can make another one of those. Like, it just seemed odd to me that she would be so hell bent on going to such lengths for that fetus.
Lori 19:08
Well, I think a couple of things. I think she has been pregnant long enough that she feels that she knows the baby. You know, when you're like five or six months, I mean, she's been feeling movements and all that. And so she's very attached to it. They picked out a name. So I think it's fair for her to think of that as her baby. That's a wanted child. And also, she can't go back to Beta colony. I can't remember why but she can't go there. So she can't spit in a cup and have the baby, and if you recall, the toxins they expect have damaged her husband's testicles. So they said you can't count on the idea of being able to do it the old-fashioned way. So this may be actually for several reasons. But I mean, I think the primary reason is that she feels deeply attached to that baby.
Amy 19:52
That in and of itself, and maybe like this isn't something that most Betan mothers would experience - carrying a baby - and so you know, it's all very novel to her. And I could see that part. And of course, obviously, I'm not faulting people for getting attached to their fetuses. It was more in the context of her character.
Haley 20:09
A third reason is spite. To say, "To hell with you, Peter. I'm gonna have this baby."
Amy 20:14
We didn't even talk about her father in law.
Lori 20:15
The other thing, Amy, to your point about Beta colony being very technologically advanced - to them, they would not - you know, this feels gross to even say out loud. And it's meant to be gross. The book is not glorifying it or anything, but on Barrayar, they just discard people with disabilities. They're just either discarded pre-birth or at birth, or, you know, Koudelka has kind of been ostracized and looked down on even though he's a war hero, and he's got these terrible injuries from that. So I think for her, we would normally say "we'll get him medical treatment, and he'll live a perfectly nice life." So I think she's like, "What do you mean you just discard someone because they've got a bone problem?!" That's just not something that is probably in her paradigm on how you handle health conditions.
Haley 20:59
It's very Spartan you know, like leaving the baby in the wilderness, but there's even a part where they mentioned like, if you got a TBI they would probably still kill you. Like that's what I had trouble reconciling in this book, was that it's such a - granted they they lost contact with the rest of the galaxy for a while so they kind of regressed as a civilization -
Amy 21:16
Apparently because their wormhole was closed!
Haley 21:20
Oh, you got to keep that open.
Amy 21:21
You got to keep your wormholes open.
Lori 21:23
Forgot to prop it open.
Haley 21:24
Yeah, but I wish there was more description of the environment because I couldn't picture Barrayar. Was it old-timey or was it new. Was there science or was there not? Or was it a castle? Or was it like a skyscraper? I don't know.
Lori 21:35
I was imagining castles and fields.
Haley 21:37
I was just blank. I was like, these are people in a dark room.
Lori 21:41
And honestly, I kind of imagined healthcare like on par with what we have now.
Amy 21:46
I definitely pictured King's Landing most of the time.
Haley 21:49
But looking at some of the book covers, it seems like it's not that.
Amy 21:53
Well, covers...
Lori 21:55
I know, anything can end up on a book cover. Well, and she is a space captain. I mean, they do have spaceships. So I imagined it kind of like it's like King's Landing, but also a lot cleaner, then with like a helipad.
Amy 22:06
And I think technology is trickling in now, so they have some things. Like they obviously have sword sticks, and they have plasma rays. And they have flying cars.
Lori 22:15
They have a handful of second hand uterine replicators.
Amy 22:18
They have a monorail, which always makes me think of The Simpsons. Yeah. But yeah, so they happen to have these uterine replicators sitting around. So they put the baby in one, which is one of my Soap Stuffs.
Lori 22:32
We could just call this episode Soap Stuff. But as you know, I have a name picked out for it.
Haley 22:37
We all read a lot on this podcast, for the podcast and just for fun, but when we were going around chasing after the baby in the uterine replicator, I realized that that never happened before my entire life, in a book setting. I was like, oh, yeah, this is this is weird, right?
Haley 22:37
Well, and that is kind of cool, that most of the plot is driven by this woman's pregnancy and her child!
Lori 22:55
I love it. I think my main takeaway from this book is that Cordelia and the author are forcing the readers and the other characters to accept the humanity of women and children. And that felt huge to me. Like, there were points when I was reading this, that I felt like a little emotional, because I was like, they just won't let you forget about the women and the kids. We're just throwaway characters so often, or we're just, you know, motivation for the male hero to do something. And kids? When do kids ever get much attention in a novel?
Amy 23:33
Unless you're Arya Stark.
Lori 23:37
But Arya Starks not a proper kid, right? She's like a 40 year old murderer by the time she's 12. So really she doesn't read like a child.
Haley 23:45
I actually recently learned about this as a trope. It's called fridging. Like, when women get killed -
Amy 23:51
You learned about that from our friend Lori! <laughter>
Haley 23:52
Yeah. <dubious> When??
Amy 23:54
When we were discussing, what was it? Discussing The Expanse. She taught us all about fridging.
Lori 24:02
It was at this table.
Haley 24:03
Hmm. I don't remember that. Well, I read it on the internet recently.
Lori 24:07
Maybe it was from the link in the show notes that I posted?
Haley 24:11
No, no.
Lori 24:13
Because guess what, everybody? These two don't really listen to the podcast unless I beg them to. Kevin does such a good job with the edits that I just want you guys to listen so bad.
Amy 24:24
I listened to the Moby Dick episode, and it was great. Very well done on the edits.
Haley 24:28
I listened to most of it! To be fair, though, I don't listen to any podcast.
Amy 24:32
I listen to all of them but ours.
Lori 24:35
I listen to all of them and ours. Haley, what were you gonna say about fridging?
Haley 24:39
Oh, yeah. Like most of the time women are just the fridge characters like oh, you assaulted my daughter, I'm gonna go get revenge. She's no longer in the plot but it's the impetus for men to change or go seek revenge.
Amy 24:50
I thought it was really interesting that a lot of the coup and the fighting and like all of the machinations going on around this thing, which is central to the plot. We go with Cordelia on her trip into the woods to hide Emperor Gregor and get away from the scary men coming up with guns. And then we're in the woods with her, we're in this cabin, we're in this cave, we're doing all these things, and we have no idea what's going on in the outside world, because she doesn't. And, you know, you rarely have that in books, the women will get shuffled away somewhere safe, and then you don't follow them, you follow them in and to the action. And there's plenty of action. They got to escape these bad men and she's got to create this French farce in this cave. And then they gotta, they gotta eat groats. <laughter>
Haley 25:32
So many groats!
Amy 25:36
You never get her perspective, her sheltered sort of frustrated position of not knowing what's going on, and suffering a lot, you know, but we never see it. So I just thought it was really cool.
Lori 25:48
Yeah, well, she's got a job to do. It's to save herself and to take care of the little boy. And I love when - so they hand the little boy off. At one point, they hand the Emperor off to a person who's addressed as Armsman, to basically take him somewhere secret and keep him safe. And she says, Take care of him. And he's like, Of course I will. He's my Emperor. And she was like, the idea that he's the Emperor, she says, is a delusion. He's a little boy. I had a moment when I read that. I really had a moment. And then the Armsman said, I know, I have a four year old little boy. And I was like, she makes him to see this child as a person.
Amy 26:24
It's a very good moment.
Lori 26:25
Yeah, he's not important because he's the Emperor. He's important because he's a little boy. <laughter> Amy's patting me, I'm fine.
Amy 26:32
You seem like you're welling up a little bit?
Lori 26:34
I am! And I did when I read it. Because I just think you don't see people treated like people in that way, especially not kids.
Amy 26:42
Especially not in these space operas. Because I mean, a lot of space, opera books end up being sort of like, you have these cold boxes off in the distance that you're told, have 200 people on them, and they get blown up. And then the 200 people die. But like Cordelia is running around seeing all of these soldiers as lost children and like, feels that these people are just seen as cannon fodder and aren't valued. And she, she's everybody's mother the whole time.
Lori 27:07
I like that. And that also, she is capable in her own right. She takes care of business. Like she sees everybody as some somebody's kid. But she also was like, "Well, if I need to chop your head off to solve this problem, then that's where we're gonna do."
Amy 27:22
That's why it frustrated me so much that she was just gestating for the first third of the book.
Haley 27:25
The book has a lot of slow points.
Lori 27:28
I appreciate that it's not super long. So you are just like, chilling with her, but I guess that's maybe some world building going on there. So we can see that she feels very "fish out of water." And she's sort of finding her role because she's been a ship's captain and a space cartographer and all this interesting stuff. And I like that she actually acknowledges, "I am ready to eat some bon-bons and do nothing. And hang out and have friends. I've put in my work."
Amy 28:01
And it was interesting seeing a woman of action trying to acclimate or assimilate to this to this life of quiet. I mean, she doesn't have a job on Barrayar, really. Women aren't given much to do there. So she has to sort of get used to this idea that she's going to put on these skirts and go visit you know, the Dowager Empress or whatever.
Haley 28:25
She's retired!
Amy 28:25
And drink tea but it doesn't come naturally to her, I don't think And so she's sort of getting used to it, I think.
Lori 28:31
Yeah, I appreciate the breadth of it. She's definitely got some restlessness, but she's also like, looking forward to this new chapter, I think. It's not perfect, but she also doesn't hate it. She's not like imprisoned -
Amy 28:43
And then people start trying to kill her.
Lori 28:45
It's not nice. And she's so nice! She's like, the nicest person.
Amy 28:50
She would be nice to everyone if they would just let her!
Lori 28:53
Oh, okay. On the subject of being nice. There's the early scene where she hears those two men bad mouthing her husband, and she's sitting in front of them and she just like turns around and just drags them! I love it. But then later she apologized and felt bad about eavesdropping, and I was like - as a person who likes to listen to other people's conversations - it is not eavesdropping if you're in a public place and someone is sitting right next to you talking at the top of their lungs about your husband.
Amy 29:25
I think we're supposed to have like a The City and The City wall between us and other people who are talking really close to us in public. Like you can hear them, but you're supposed to try and tune them out and not pay attention.
Lori 29:34
If I get overheard bad mouthing somebody, that is my fault.
Haley 29:38
If I can see your phone. I will read your text messages. <laughter>
Lori 29:40
Oh my god, it's my favorite thing to do on MARTA. It is my favorite thing.
Haley 29:44
I'm just riding MARTA because of that!
Lori 29:45
Have you ever been sitting behind somebody on MARTA who was texting two different women at one time? I HAVE!
Amy 29:49
I had a whole thing about Cordelia taking the Gap bag with the head in it on MARTA.
Lori 29:52
<laughter> Stop saying the Gap bag!
Amy 29:58
Well, she talks about the shopping bag in the drawstring bag! She's got a frickin' Gap bag! This was written at the height of Gap bags! <laughter>
Lori 30:06
Okay, it's definitely a Gap bag!
Haley 30:09
Definitely. Nowadays it would be a reusable Kroger bag, I think.
Lori 30:14
A canvas NPR tote.
Amy 30:18
No. Canvas would not be a good thing to haul a bloody head around. You're gonna need something uh, with an impermeable membrane.
Lori 30:24
Well, she wasn't planning to put the head in the bag.
Amy 30:26
Yeah, she was! That's what she was looking for.
Lori 30:29
Oh that's right. I forgot that she didn't just bring the bag with her.
Amy 30:33
They cut the head off the bed in the bedroom. And she's like, What can I put that in? And then she's like, oh, oh, Dowager Empress Kareen has a bag of shoes from a lady's Emporium!
Haley 30:44
It's a subversion of like, you know, a woman's gonna go shopping, women be shoppin'! That whole trope. I'm even gonna put a head in there!
Amy 30:53
And she said, when she got back to HQ. Count Peter (that asshole) is like, Where have you been? And she's like, "Shopping!" and then she rolls the head out on the table in this great dropped mic moment.
Haley 31:05
It's very much Pretty Woman like: "BIG MISTAKE!"
Lori 31:13
This book has so many moments that are so clever.
Haley 31:15
It does! If I could just shorten, tighten up the middle third.
Lori 31:18
Well, here's something that I've been learning as our friend of the pod, Ann Harris (up and coming author who we hope to see some published works from soon) has been telling me about kind of how the sausage is made with books. And she said like, a lot of times when there is something kind of dragging in a book, or like a B plot that you don't care about, oftentimes it might be that they sent their book to the publisher, and the publisher was like, "Well, I like it, but it needs to be 50 pages longer and add some romance." So then you just do it because that's how you get to sell your book. Like that's your opportunity. And then you know, once you're established, once you're Stephen King, you can shit on a piece of paper and they'll publish it.
Haley 32:00
And depending on how much you love a book, sometimes you want a million words.
Amy 32:04
A lot of this was fanservice.
Lori 32:06
I think about the publication order of these books. So for us coming to this new, I enjoyed reading it. I thought it was a good book. And I love a lot of things about it. But I think if I had been 16 and I had started with Shards of Honor, and then read Miles Vorkosigan's whole life, and then that book came out. I would have been obsessed. Like I want to know about every groat that she ate, every dress that she wore, every head she chopped off. And so I absolutely understand why people who already had a relationship with the whole saga would have been just overjoyed to read this book.
Amy 32:43
And she has these little quips in there that are very clearly fanservice like, "Oh, do you know that guy? Oh, we've met before." You know, wink wink.
Haley 32:55
I do wonder if I would like some other books better because I wrote this note: "I wish there was 25% more sci fi." So much of this feels like fantasy, with the ladies, the groats, the horses, castles. The taverns.
Amy 33:08
It's not sci fi.
Lori 33:09
It's a piece of a larger space opera. In the back of my copy it has the chronology. It says "Miles Vorkosigan Naismith: His universe and times." And so I was just glancing through these because it has like a couple sentence summary of each book. And my favorite one is in the book called Memory - it says, "Miles hits 30; 30 hits back." <laughter> I identify with that.
Amy 33:40
30 hit me right across the face. I went on a crying jag. Oh boy, my poor boyfriend at the time had to deal with it. Ugh! It was terrible
Lori 33:47
39 is barreling toward me.
Amy 33:50
I have seen 39 come and go. I can tell you it's not as bad as you think.
Haley 33:55
Yeah, I was far more upset about 30 when I was like 29.
Amy 33:57
And then I was far more upset about 30 when I turned 30, then I was about 40 when I turned 40. Speaking of genres, okay, so alright - so do we all agree this is not science fiction?
Haley 34:08
There's, like 10% science fiction parts to it. But it's like a fantasy. Like I was living and breathing a fantasy world when I was reading this, which is why I struggled a little bit.
Lori 34:16
There's no magic and there's no dragons though.
Haley 34:19
It had a fantasy vibe to me.
Lori 34:20
I mean, I totally agree with you that the culture of this book feels like fantasy. But there isn't any magic. There's no wizards.
Amy 34:27
The uterine replicator is magic. There is no way that would work!
Haley 34:33
There's no magic but there was an oppressive fantasy feeling pressing down on me when I was reading. <laughter>
Lori 34:39
You really can't envision artificial womb? Because I feel like those exist in some kind of way.
Amy 34:46
I mean, there's incubators.
Lori 34:47
If call it an artificial womb and not a uterine replicator -
Amy 34:50
"Uterine replicator" to me sounds like it should be a thing where you press a button and uterus has come out.
Lori 34:54
Right, yeah, I agree.
Amy 34:56
I had a hard time with uterine replicating.
Lori 34:58
It's just an artificial uterus.
Haley 35:00
Yeah, the technology that exists in this book reminded me of like, I don't know, like, archaic technology. I guess fantasy can have magic in it, but like, it just seemed old-timey. It seemed Game of Thrones-y to me.
Amy 35:16
I do like that the most important technology in the book was technology connected childbearing and childbirth.
Haley 35:24
I mean, who knows what else is there?
Amy 35:25
I mean, they have flying cars, which is cool.
Haley 35:31
Or like, like Lightspeeders or whatever they were called? Yeah, like, it's, it's funny. Like, I know that I complained about this when I read, like Charles Dickens when like, a lot of Victorian novels, like, you enter a room and they describe every painting on the wall, and the walls are eight feet tall. And there was like a scuff on the floor. Like, I kind of wanted that sometimes to help orient myself.
Amy 35:47
I kind of wanted that too, because as much as we spend time in her head, and as much time as she spends thinking about Barrayar, I don't really walk away with a very big understanding about a lot of the inter-political machinations.
Haley 35:56
I'm still confused about that.
Lori 36:00
Oh, yeah. And everybody's named Vor-something. I really enjoyed her writing, except for I was confused about who literally everyone was.
Amy 36:06
Yeah, I know. Once I figured out that four was kind of like having a Von, if you're German.
Haley 36:11
Is there a more science fiction name, though, than Vordarian?
Amy 36:14
Vidal Vordarian!
Haley 36:14
Like Vidal Sasoon.
Amy 36:18
I called him Vidal Sasoon in my notes, and then I took it out! I was like, they're all gonna be mad at me anyway, for the Gap bag. So I'm gonna take out Vidal Sasoon.
Lori 36:25
There's a whole Wikipedia article about artificial womb technology.
Amy 36:28
Oh, excuse me, excuse me, I'm sorry.
Lori 36:30
I'm just saying, I just wanted to share that. It's pretty interesting.
Amy 36:33
Can you take a baby out??
Haley 36:35
Yeah, it's called the NICU.
Lori 36:36
Well, let me read you this very short section that I just happened to notice. In 2016, scientists published two studies regarding human embryos developing for 13 days within an ecto-uterine environment. Currently, a 14 day rule prevents human embryos from being kept in artificial wombs, longer than 14 days, this rule has been codified into law in 12 countries. So like, I think, first of all, that's very Barrayarish rule. But I think that technology is exists or is beginning to exist.
Amy 37:11
First, first of all, this was written in 1990, whatever. So that wasn't happening. This is magic. It's magic in the book.
Haley 37:21
Okay. So the magic line can go either way with fantasy or sci fi.
Amy 37:24
No, it's not really magic.
Haley 37:27
I mean, I, I agree with Lori, that that's not magic. But it's also not completely sci fi.
Amy 37:32
To detach a placenta with the baby intact, and put it in another vessel and have that vessel support that baby, is insane.
Haley 37:41
Well, I mean, like, technically, if I went back in time and showed a Victorian child, my phone, he would think that's magic, too.
Amy 37:46
I'm not saying they can't ever come up with this. But to me, this was such like a - it's very soapy to me. But I think it's very convenient thing that they have this thing. And I don't think this is new. I think Bujold has often been criticized for her sort of glossing over technology, like she'll throw technology into her books and not - you know, this is from just the stuff I read for preparing for this podcast, it's not like I'm a scholar on Bujold. But she's much more interested in her characters and her internal stuff.
Lori 38:17
I think there's definitely a reason for this, that she didn't just get poisoned and then have to deal with a difficult pregnancy and birth. It's the you know, the uterine replicator exists in part so that Cordelia can go have adventures, and not be heavily and dangerously pregnant.
Amy 38:30
Would that we could all have one of those. I think that's a great idea!
Lori 38:32
Well, I mean, of course, a person who could get pregnant and give birth - and maybe did, I don't know if she had children or not - but of course, someone would think of that.
Haley 38:40
Yeah. And it's also a plot device to come up with a cool progressive society like Beta, and then also to criticize a patriarchal bullshit society like Barrayar.
Amy 38:47
And I do think this device is very equalizing. So like, if you don't have to just get your children, you can go off and do stuff. And if you get injured, the baby could still live. And like, I think there's a lot to be said, for this piece of technology. Like it would be huge to have something like this.
Lori 39:02
Oh, okay, so it's technology now?! Checkmate!
Amy 39:06
Okay! It's okay to change your mind about it.
Lori 39:09
It is, it is.
Amy 39:10
Um, but yeah, I mean, I was in general, in favor of the idea of one of these things, because I think it's great. However, the rest of Beta colony's approach to stuff was very odd. Like she talked about hymen cutting of 14 year old girls, plus obligatory birth control and parental licenses, which I have lots of thoughts on.
Lori 39:32
My hope is it that was not supposed to be exemplary.
Amy 39:37
Yeah. Is that progressive or no?
Lori 39:41
I wonder if she's doing there is teeing up like, there's a lot that's good about a super progressive, technologically advanced, equitable society. And then like, when you look real close, some of it seems kind of monstrous too.
Amy 39:53
I mean, Cordelia was talking about it like it was the height of enlightenment.
Haley 39:56
Well, you know, most people favor their own society. Like, my favorite movie is Gattaca. And that movie is about, you know, basically getting rid of any genetic defects in a child before it's born. It's all done in utero and like, the ethics become: where do you draw the line? Like, obviously, you wouldn't want your child to have a disease where it can't survive after birth. That would be heartbreaking. But also like, what about being near-sighted? Where do you draw the line?
Amy 40:21
The extreme of this is, of course, is embodied by Count Peter, who's like, No, only we don't have a deformed Count Vorkosigan.
Haley 40:32
Oh my god, he is SO horrible.
Amy 40:34
The word of "mutant" shows up in this book so many times. He's horrifying. We didn't really talk about him, but he basically wants them to get rid of this baby, when they find out that he's probably going to have some difficulties from the antidote that they took, to this poison. And he goes so far as to go over to the hospital and try and bribe people to basically turn the machine off. I mean, he's trying to murder this baby.
Haley 40:51
And it's primarily because of shame.
Amy 41:03
Yeah. And so and it's and it's very much a eugenics thing. It's like, we Vors are perfect. We need every one of them to be perfect. And they get to decide what perfect is.
Lori 41:12
Toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
Amy 41:14
Listen, it ruins the party again, people. So there's that side of it. So like he's embodying this, you know, what's your next level of this?
Haley 41:22
It's like a horseshoe though. Because in, in the Betan colony, that person never would have the option to be born.
Amy 41:29
Well, right. Because she says that. I tried to find it before we started recording, but I couldn't find it right off, but she definitely indicates that they do that kind of screening on Beta colony, too. They just do it early. And so you know, they don't expose living children on the hilltop after they're born -
Lori 41:45
Which Count Piotr would definitely do.
Amy 41:47
Absolutely. I mean, they just do it while they're still four cells, you know, which, all right. Where's the line on that?
Lori 41:55
Haley, I think your horseshoe analogy is very apt.
Amy 41:58
Yeah, it's a circle. I feel like you come back around at some point because-
Haley 42:02
Is it woke or is it not?
Amy 42:03
I don't know!
Lori 42:04
I mean, I think to some degree, she's grappling with that a bit in this book, and she sets up these societies as foils, but both of them have things that to a reader are very obviously messed up.
Haley 42:15
Well, even like, you know, what I first read it, when you have sex on Beta colony, you've got to get a license to have a kid. Like, that's also restricting people's access to reproduction. That's a fundamental human right.
Amy 42:26
You know, it's interesting, that question is always been an interesting one to me. Because, you know, there's a very basic level on which it feels icky to make people apply to be parents. But we make people do that when they want to adopt.
Haley 42:36
Or even adopt a dog! It's more stringent.
Amy 42:38
Yeah, so. So we do do it, we just don't do it if you get pregnant by having sex, basically. And you know, we screen people in a way if they want to get pregnant using IVF, or something like that, 'cause you can't do if you don't have money. And that's a barrier.
Haley 42:54
But two drunk people at a bar can just go procreate right now.
Amy 42:59
Exactly. So nobody's policing that, you know, but adopting - I don't know, if we just draw the line at there being an already living baby that we need to take care of, or what. But people do adopt even before the baby's born.
Haley 43:11
Well yeah. And depending on the political party, like, where do you draw the line at life?
Amy 43:15
It's very, it's very strange. And it's not something I know the answer to. It's just something that this book kind of made me grapple with a little bit. On the one hand, I would like to see every baby that's born, be born to people who want it and can take care of it and do take care of it. On the other hand, who makes those rules? You know, who says who can take care of it?
Haley 43:33
Yeah, meanwhile, to even adopt a cat, I had to take them on a Zoom tour of my town house.
Lori 43:40
When we got Teddy, they came over and looked at our house.
Amy 43:43
So if we're giving birth to human beings, why don't we have to prove to someone -
Haley 43:48
When you're going into a hospital, you don't have to show that you have an apartment or a house.
Amy 43:51
But at the same time, you can go pick up a dog off the street, and have a dog. This is not like, these are absolute rules in our society.
Lori 43:57
I am going to answer the question about why people can willy-nilly reproduce, and there are no licenses for that. And that reason is, Amy, that there's a need to continue to produce workers.
Haley 44:08
Oof.
Amy 44:09
Oh, oh. Ugh.
Lori 44:13
Should we all just sit quietly and sadly for a moment?
Amy 44:16
Well, I also think, people know that that would not be something you could really enforce.
Lori 44:23
Of course, yeah. But I also think, that's a really what "pro-life" is about. It's about pro-birth.
Haley 44:32
There's no ethical reproduction under capitalism! <laughter>
Lori 44:35
Well, I think about, sometimes when I get very much too far into my own mind, I think about how much power birthing people could have. If we all were just like, "No, fuck you. I'm opting out." And then there aren't any more workers! I just think we hold so much power. But people of course, you know, for obvious reasons want to have families or they have children by accident -
Amy 45:00
And they definitely want to have sex. Which does, I'm told, lead to babies!
Lori 45:05
Often!
Haley 45:06
Not if you're gay! <laughter>
Amy 45:13
I mean that there's a part of me that sort of sees the logic behind, you know, compulsory birth control and only taking it out if you can show that this it's gonna be okay.
Haley 45:25
But I mean, we have trouble in America deciding who can even legally vote, so I can't imagine.
Amy 45:30
They're banning books right now that might make students uncomfortable.
Haley 45:35
Yeah, we live in The Bad Place.
Amy 45:39
God bless. Horses!
Lori 45:44
Hey!! Oh! That's my that's my special segment!
Amy 45:48
Horses! Would we call them slaves, symbiants, or commensals?
Lori 45:52
I propose a special segment and I have two potential titles for it. So thought of these one night after Kevin was already asleep and I thought about these. I was laughing so hard and trying not to make any noise, so I was just shaking.
Amy 46:13
He's like, is there an earthquake?
Lori 46:14
So what do you think about - the first one is Pony Prattle? <laughter>
Amy 46:19
Oh, that made me pee a little! <laughter>
Lori 46:20
And the other one is: Horse Holler <laughter>
Haley 46:29
I like Pony Prattle! Today, I learned that a pony is not just a young horse
Amy 46:34
That's right! Two different animals. But you could work your way up to a horse. You show count Peter that you're taking it seriously.
Haley 46:41
A Quarter Horse, I learned that from this book.
Amy 46:43
Oh that joke!!
Lori 46:44
That joke was when I was when I was like, "We have to have a Pony Prattle." The Quarter Horse joke is so funny.
Amy 46:49
"He called it a quarter horse but it looked like a whole horse to me."
Lori 46:52
Oh my god. It's such a dad joke. I love it.
Amy 46:55
This whole book is full of those little things. He's like, "You can't sit here and tell us that our family has a bunch of mutants in it." And she's like, "Where am I supposed to sit?"
Haley 47:07
When are we going to do horse trivia? During during Pony Prattle? Because I did some research.
Amy 47:17
I've done my own research. And I've learned that a pony is not a horse.
Haley 47:21
Like, I went through a bunch of 4-H websites and I pulled up some questions.
Amy 47:25
Yes, I'm so excited.
Lori 47:27
Okay, but can I briefly say how much I like certain passages of her writing though.
Amy 47:31
I do too. I had a bunch of highlights that I was gonna talk about her writing.
Lori 47:34
Yeah. My first, the first like, moment I had where I was like, "Oh, this is good" is early in the books. When she steps outside. Cordelia steps outside. And it's like, one of those days where it's cold, but the sun is bright. So she's like, feeling the chill in the air. But the heat is coming up off of the tiles. And I was just like, that was nice. Ah, it's just wonderful.
Amy 47:54
Yeah, she has to she has these. You know, it's not complex writing. Most of the time.
Lori 47:59
I understood everything, which was a real treat.
Amy 48:01
Every now and again, she has these she has these ways of putting things, and you're like, oh, yeah, she's a really good writer.
Lori 48:05
And you're really there. Like when I read that? I was like, I know exactly what that feels like when it's cold but warm.
Amy 48:10
Yeah. And she didn't really talk when you were in like when we were traveling on the horse with her and going to the cabin. I was very uncomfortable. Like the whole time. It was yeah, it went on a little long, but it was it was I particularly really like the way she describes people. So like, I like that someone's "bullet-headed." Someone, he was "rendered a bit dish faced by a prominent forehead and a jaw that his nose and mustache had trouble overpowering." "Neither handsome nor ugly. And another mood one might call him strong featured."
Haley 48:39
So who was the guy that was their like? Their guide when they were like on ponies?
Lori 48:44
The mailman?
Haley 48:45
Yeah, the mailman. "His fatigues were dirty and wrinkled and looked slept in their smoke stink eclipsing Cordelia's mountain reek."
Amy 48:52
Smoke stink and mountain reek!
Haley 48:53
At one point, she invented a classical phrase from Matthew McConaughey. She goes that Miles was, "all right, all right, all right." <laughter>
Amy 49:02
I did like how she does write with a lot of ellipses.
Haley 49:05
Okay, yes, I want to talk about this. Yeah, it is like texting my mother. Because it's like meant to like make like, a like, an emphatic pause, like, "well, dot dot, dot, I don't know." Or "he is dot dot dot ugly" like. <laughter> Every time it did it, I cringed a little bit, but I know it's her thing, so it's fine.
Amy 49:24
Here's the phrase. "Yeah, it's bitched to hell." Everything's been "bitched." I don't know, I wonder if that's a Midwesternism. She's very Midwestern. So no,
Lori 49:40
One last point. I love that when she finally gets to see a doctor after their pony journey. And the doctors like "so what's wrong?" And she has this list of things in her head. It's like 40 different things. And she's like, I can't say all that out loud. And so she goes "Fatigue." And I was just like, yes, it's like medical sexism and women like shrinking themselves, because you know that your problems won't really be addressed. And then the doctor, she says, he visibly brightens. He's like, "Oh, yes, women are often tired. Have you considered exercising?"
Amy 50:10
I just came back from the exercise!
Lori 50:13
She's like, "I'm a ship's captain, and I've been in a horse for four days." I just, there were so many moments in this book where I felt very represented.
Amy 50:22
Oh, yep. Yes. Oh, yes. Yep. All right, Pony Prattle! Our new special segment. <Lori whinnies like a horse>
Haley 50:34
Oh, alright. Name the breed, whose horse name means fine walk?
Lori 50:44
Paso Fino.
Lori 50:45
Correct!
Amy 50:46
Stallion!
Haley 50:47
Alright, for the ones that you miss, we can just take out. <laughter> The domestic horse. The domestic horse belongs to what species?
Lori 50:56
Equus!
Haley 50:57
Yes. What is the term for altering the teeth of an older horse to make it look younger?
Lori 51:02
Floating?
Haley 51:03
Bishoping.
Lori 51:03
Huh.
Haley 51:04
Oh, a term for a mature female horse that's never had kids
Amy 51:08
Mare! Mare! Mare!
Haley 51:09
No.
Lori 51:11
Uhhhhhhhhh. Barren?
Haley 51:13
Maiden. Maiden mare.
Lori 51:16
Ohhhhh.
Haley 51:17
What is the withers of a horse?
Lori 51:19
The shoulders.
Amy 51:19
<incorrectly> The butt!
Haley 51:20
This is, this is HER pony prattle!
Amy 51:22
I thought we were all playing.
Haley 51:23
Nope, this is for Lori.
Amy 51:24
Oh, nevermind then.
Haley 52:23
I also had no way of knowing what was easy or hard.
Amy 52:24
What's the cutest horse?
Lori 52:26
All of them.
Amy 52:28
I like that this book insofar as horses are concerned, appeals to the both of you. Because there's a lot of horse love in this book. But Cordelia herself hates horses.
Lori 52:39
Man. She hates them!
Haley 52:41
She hates them like Indiana Jones hate snakes, like I also hate them.
Amy 52:45
With a fiery passion. Yeah, pretty funny. Which I want to know why she hates horses so much because it does not seem like she came from a place with horses.
Lori 52:52
Yeah, I think that it just doesn't make any sense to her. She's like, why would you ride this giant animal? Why wouldn't you get like a speeder bike?
Amy 52:57
She's also a vegetarian. Maybe she just doesn't understand animals in general.
Haley 53:01
Well, she, well that and like, horses are a little smelly. They can kick you.
Amy 53:05
And they can be scary. They're big.
Haley 53:06
They scare the shit out of me.
Amy 53:08
They're very big and she rolled right off of that first one. She tried to get on and she just just rolled right off.
Haley 53:13
I have another question. What does it mean when a horse wears a red ribbon on his back?
Lori 53:17
A red ribbon on its back?
Amy 53:18
It won second place?
Haley 53:19
On his like, on his ponytail.
Lori 53:20
Oh, that he kicks!
Haley 53:21
Yeah.
Amy 53:22
Oh.
Amy 53:22
Kids! Do we have a feminist fave up in here?
Haley 53:25
I mean, it's probably the shopping trip.
Amy 53:29
You mean when she gets the head?
Haley 53:30
Mm-hm.
Amy 53:31
Because she doesn't actually go on a shopping trip, does she? Well, for the sword.
Haley 53:34
Well, she goes like in the first 10 pages so just to go.
Amy 53:36
But the real shopping trip was for the head. Yeah,
Lori 53:38
Mine is when Cordelia drags all the men for speculating about Kareen's loyalty based on that propaganda video. And she says "if she truly thinks her son is dead, then all she has left to look out for is her own survival? Why risk that for some dramatic futility? What does she owe you, or owe us? We've all failed her. Maybe the only revenge she thinks she'll ever get is to live long enough to spit on all your graves." I loved that because they're like oh how dare she cozy up to him and she's like what the fuck is it to her like she has no power she's treated basically as a breeding you know breeding stock she's not even regent on behalf of her son so she can't even be a Cersei. Aral - who is he?! Just some guy, just some count's son -
Haley 54:22
Just Ned Stark.
Lori 54:23
- gets to be her, her kid's regent, so she has no power of her own once her kid is gone. It's like, what does she care? She has number one, look out for number one, Kareen.
Amy 54:31
Absolutely. She has to eat.
Haley 54:32
That's about it.
Amy 54:33
Like people keep questioning Kareen through the second half of the book and every single time Cordelia is like "no ma'am. Not in my house, have several seats."
Amy 54:42
I also really liked, I had several feminists fave, sort of Cordy general and Cordy and Kareen stopping a coup by talking about their kids, which I thought was pretty great. And then frickin Alice Vorpatril, just giving birth in basically an alley like "nbd," like nobody knew what to do, and she just has this baby!
Lori 55:03
All the women in this book, take care of business.
Amy 55:05
Heck, yeah. And she has a baby and then she goes and just naps it off for a little while in a house of ill repute and then escapes the city. Like, I was just, I was very there for that. And then she's like, I'm gonna tell you all about your wedding dress, and I'm gonna take you shopping. And I mean, she's just kind of a badass. I liked her. I liked her and she survived. She survived being in hiding, while
Lori 55:26
Oh, two extra weeks! I mean -
Haley 55:29
Does that happen a lot? That sounds horrible. I
Lori 55:31
Nowadays, you would be induced.
Haley 55:33
Yeah, that's true.
Lori 55:33
On Beta colony, you would be induced.
Amy 55:35
In 1980, I was two weeks late.
Lori 55:36
Oh, my god.
Lori 55:38
Koudelka trying to negotiate a discount for the sex worker's time because he did not actually have sex with her made me very angry. If you go to a restaurant, and you order a bunch of food, and then you don't eat it, you still better pay for it. And you still better tip 20%!
Amy 55:52
Yep. I'm into that. Yeah, I sort of glossed over that whole part. So I'm just horrified by the whole thing. So I didn't really spend much time with them. There. They got jumped outside the door and I wasn't sorry for it. <laughter>
Amy 56:10
The death of Kareen really bugged me. I really, was really upset that they killed her off. Like I feel like she deserved better and Cordy had spent so much time fighting for her that she deserved to live through that and I'm mad that she did not. Although in the moment, it does make some sense. I mean, she did go off half cocked and try and kill the guy. But it just still bugged me. And then I did not like that. Drew is introduced the strong woman who has to be a soldier and then she spends the entire book pining after Kou, and just bugged me.
Lori 56:39
Yeah, once again. I could leave the whole Kou/Drew B plot.
Haley 56:42
Yeah, I mean, I could see our antinomious man not liking this book for that romance plot. Like I totally buy Aral and Cordy, like they like have a forgiving, honest love. But like, this is just a man and woman that are in the same room and she's like, "well, they're gonna get together right? Yes, Kiss Kiss. I say kiss."
Lori 56:59
She's really like, Cordelia is so bored. I think that's part of her restlessness. She's like, I need something to do. So I'm gonna manipulate these two hapless young people.
Haley 57:09
Yeah, cuz there was never any like flirting on their part. I was like, ehh, boring.
Haley 57:09
What was your misogynist moment?
Haley 57:16
I had trouble finding one. So.
Lori 57:18
That's nice!
Haley 57:19
Yeah.
Amy 57:19
Oh, okay! Cool. Boob talk! The word "breast" is mentioned twice in this book, both in reference to pregnancy and a baby. Thumbs up.
Haley 57:35
I think I meant to mention this in misogynist moment, but this description of a lady at I think at the tavern or the house of ill repute reminded me of the women, the the tired, haggard woman in The Expanse. "15 years ago, or even 10 years ago, she might have achieved a leggy, aquiline look. Now, she was bony and faded, mis-clad in a gaudy magenta robe with drooping ruffles that seemed to echo her inherent sadness." Why's she gonna talk about a woman like that in this book! This is a safe space!
Lori 58:05
Yeah, I also take issue with the idea that just because someone does sex work, that they're just sad and drained that they must be sad and drained.
Amy 58:14
I thought that was more showing poverty versus wealth in the city. I think that's more of a poverty thing than anything else, but she does choose a pretty loaded way.
Haley 58:27
And 30 years ago, we did not have like, sex worker positive language, really.
Amy 58:32
Fantastical foods! Groats!
Lori 58:35
So many groats.
Amy 58:35
So many groats!
Haley 58:36
So I have oatmeal, that sits on top of my fridge and I don't eat it every day.
Amy 58:40
I eat oatmeal sometimes.
Haley 58:42
I just, they eat it a lot. Adding butter made it sound good. There was one point I think when they're in the house of ill repute that they they get brought beer and cheese sandwiches. That sounds great.
Amy 58:51
I eat that pretty frequently. Just beer and cheese.
Lori 58:55
I like toward the middle of the book, a dinner stew is brought to them and it says "dinner stew brought on a tray by a Batman."
Haley 59:03
Oh, I had to look that up!
Lori 59:04
I decided not to, I just imagined the Caped Crusader. It was more fun.
Haley 59:07
I think it's more of a batman.
Amy 59:09
Batman.
Haley 59:09
Is Batman the Caped Crusader? Okay.
Amy 59:12
It's an assistant.
Haley 59:13
Yeah. It's like a valet.
Lori 59:13
<singing to the Batman tune> nananananana dinner stew
Haley 59:18
And he's like <in a Christian Bale Batman voice> "here's your breakfast." <extended laughter> "The breakfast not that you deserve, it's the one you need."
Amy 59:34
Yeah, lots of groats, which I'm assuming is some sort of grit or oat
Haley 59:38
Well so I also researched this. So a groat is like - usually oats are rolled and refined and they're easier to digest, and groats can be from different types of wheaty products and it's just like a chewier, nastier oatmeal.
Lori 59:50
Like it's still the whole -
Amy 59:52
Like steel cut.
Lori 59:54
That's what I was thinking of, it's less processed.
Amy 59:56
Okay
Haley 59:57
It's got the chewy endosperm attached to it still
Amy 59:59
I'd probably eat it.
Lori 1:00:02
They would charge you like $11.99 for a small cloth bag at Whole Foods. I feel very sure.
Amy 1:00:08
Soap stuff!
Lori 1:00:10
this whole book
Haley 1:00:11
I literally wrote the whole book
Amy 1:00:12
Guys, the whole book. I wrote so so so much. Ripping off the hood to reveal Evon Vorhalas and his revenge for his dead brother after the grenade comes through the window. That was pretty great. That was a very Scooby Doo moment, which I appreciate.
Lori 1:00:25
Oh, yeah
Haley 1:00:26
I mean, I think the head in the duffel bag.
Amy 1:00:29
Yeah, and then the antidote will save you, <gasp> but it will kill your unborn child.
Lori 1:00:37
So, Bothari. The memory wiping of Bothari. That is JUST like when John Black on Days of Our Lives has his memory wiped. So John Black was like a super soldier that Stefano DiMera the big bad, on Days of Our Lives.
Amy 1:00:53
I've heard that name!
Lori 1:00:54
Yeah, he's the big bad for like decades and decades. So uh, him and also Victor Kiriakis. But I feel like he was more of like a bad businessman. Stefano DiMera's, like a bad bad guy. So he called John Black "The Pawn." And he was like his weird programmed super soldier. He had a chip in his brain, and he did all this bad stuff. And then Marlena was married to Roman Brady. And then he disappeared, and everyone thought that he died. And then John Black came to Salem. And he was like, Hi, I'm John Black, and he had no memory of being a super soldier. So him and Marlena fall in love. Guess what those two decide?! They fall in love. And then they decide he must actually be her long lost husband Roman Brady with amnesia and extensive plastic surgery. <laughter>
Amy 1:01:35
He changed his face?
Lori 1:01:36
Yeah. And then and he becomes a good guy because he's not being controlled by a Stefano DiMera chip anymore. So anyway, the whole like super soldier with the dark past reminded me of Bothari.
Amy 1:01:46
With the, with the memory wipe.
Lori 1:01:47
Yeah. And then I won't get into this, but actual Roman Brady does come back. And so then they realize the man who looks nothing like Roman Brady isn't actually Roman Brady. And then it's uncomfortable, because Marlena is like, well...I'm married to this guy now. <laughter>
Amy 1:02:02
Did you like the book?
Lori 1:02:04
I did!
Haley 1:02:05
Mostly, yeah.
Amy 1:02:06
I'll also say mostly. I gave it three stars on Goodreads. Because I think if I was, I don't know, it probably is more like three and a half.
Haley 1:02:12
There's a couple times when like, I sat on the couch, I was like, Oh, I've got to read. I'm still I'm still on this horse. I was on the horse for two days, y'all.
Lori 1:02:18
I liked the second half of the book.
Haley 1:02:20
Oh, yes. The last 50 pages are amazing. First 20 are okay.
Amy 1:02:25
Yeah, when they get it, which because I think she does action very well. And so when she starts going, it was great.
Haley 1:02:31
This, this would have been a really tight novella. I think.
Lori 1:02:35
I said that about another popular book to my author, friend, Ann Harris, everybody buy her books once they're published. And she said it probably was a novella when they submitted to the publisher. And the publisher said it needs to be 500 pages.
Amy 1:02:46
So I will say if anybody wants a little deep dive on the book tor.com/tag/barrayar. There it, basically it's everything on Tor that got tagged as Barrayar. But there's a series where these women read this book and just sort of did it two chapters at a time -
Haley 1:03:02
Yeah, it's like Shmoop.
Amy 1:03:03
And it's and it's great. It really is great. So if you go look for their little write up on Tor, it's pretty great. Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, people!
Haley 1:03:11
This amount of horses, this got to be Lord of the Rings.
Lori 1:03:13
Yeah.
Amy 1:03:13
With this much shit. There's got to be a horse!
Haley 1:03:15
Well, also, I highlighted the word "elevenses."
Amy 1:03:18
Oh yeah!
Haley 1:03:19
I was like, I don't know what this means. But I know it's from Lord of the Rings.
Lori 1:03:21
As soo as I saw that I was like, "uh oh, Haley"
Amy 1:03:23
I want you know to I was watching Call the Midwife again the other day, and they use the term elevenses. I think it actually is just a mid morning snack in England.
Haley 1:03:31
Oh, I know, it's just ruined for me.
Amy 1:03:33
I said it's Lord of the Rings because they very explicitly say the word elevenses
Haley 1:03:37
and milady one million time
Amy 1:03:38
and they don't go to space. And milady. And this is very clearly medieval fantasy with the addition of a uterine replicator and some flashy guns.
Lori 1:03:46
No objection. I stipulate to that.
Amy 1:03:49
We'll stipulate to Lord the rings. All right, coming up next time.
Lori 1:03:53
Ringworld, and then Dreamsnake.
Amy 1:03:57
Yay!
Lori 1:03:57
And we're swapping our usual DM order. So that Haley does not have to DM a book about snakes that is also horse heavy. <laughter> Haley will be your Ringworld DM, and I will be your Dreamsnake DM.
Amy 1:04:08
I'm really excited about reading Ringworld. I've been wanting to read that one for a while
Haley 1:04:11
Ringworld is, it's a little bit like Rendezvous with Rama like it's a big dumb space object, but it's good. I'm excited about that one.
Amy 1:04:18
Um please rate review subscribe, please read the read a review, leave a review because Lori will be very sad if you don't
Lori 1:04:25
<singsong voice> And I'll read it and commit it to memory
Haley 1:04:29
she'll say it before sleep every night
Amy 1:04:30
She says it like a little prayer every night
Haley 1:04:32
the the Litany against -
Lori 1:04:35
the Litany in favor of Hugo girl.
Amy 1:04:37
I think we're gonna put some of these. We found some pretty good Barrayar covers on the internet. I'm gonna I think we should put some of them on our little insta. So you guys can see them. They're pretty great.
Lori 1:04:45
My favorite one is one that's a little bit Dr. Quinn a little bit Princess Leia.
Amy 1:04:49
When she was describing her tan suit, I was like, I see Dr. Quinn. Thanks guys.
All 1:04:58
Bye!!
<OUTRO MUSIC>
Lori
On the subject of Jeopardy, do you think that that woman who just won like 5 million days in a row? Do you think that she was just like, I want to go home? Like at some point, you might just be like, I don't want to stay in a hotel in LA anymore, and you might just go home.
Haley
It's not even that, so she didn't stay there for three months straight. She'd have to fly back for two days a week, twice a month for like three months. So. And you can't tell anybody so you have to like start lying to people I imagine. like "I've got to go back out to LA!" "Why?" "Don't worry about it!" <laughter>
Amy
And they aren't paying for her flights.
Haley
Once you win enough to come back after five times, they do pay for you to come back, but your first trip out there they don't pay for anything.
Lori
Just like the rest of life. The more money you have, the less things, the fewer things you have to pay for.
Amy
It takes money to make money, Lori.
Haley
Once you have to get back to the set. They pay for everything. So that's nice.
Lori
Hm! All right, Jeopardy corner.
Amy
We should have Jeopardy corner every time.
Lori
Jeopardy jam with Hugo, Girl!